KNIX halland accident 2015

[dr.tooth2008]

Last Sunday, I did KNIX course in Klippan gokart bana.

We were unlucky since it was raining early in the morning and through out the day.
We ended up with 2 accidents that day; me and another rider in the yellow group (intermediate level)..


I am a beginner rider, so I hope to hear your comments and tips to improve my skills..

Thanks

EDIT:

Here is the crash moment without music

 

[Ulvhamne]

Do you want comments about the crash?
How was your throttle control? The music gets in the way of the engine sound, so hard to tell, but I'd wager that you let off the throttle, put weight on the front wheel which then slipped out from under you.

 

[nissepelle]

Well, was it raining oil or something, or why is everyone driving so extremely slow and careful? From the looks of the video you are not in too high speed to keep your grip in wet, that is if your tires arent like the worst chinese brand there is. My moneys on that you got off the throttle in the middle of the corner, and at the same time pulled your front break. Or how did you use the throttle and brakes at the moment?

 

[KaliZ]

Weight on front wheel... also real cold tires perhaps.

 

[RandomDude]

My initial thought was that it must have been very slippery and/or the tires were cold. You did not lean very much and you did not touch the front brake (your revs were also low so engine braking and thus weight shift to the front wheel was also minimal). I can not blame you as a rider it was simply bad luck by hitting a spot which happened to be slippery.

What front tire do you have mounted on the bike? Sportier tires such as Michelin Pilot Power etc. have very poor wet grip which also could have been a contributing factor.

 

[PeteR1]

Could you please post the video (at least the last 15 seconds) without the music? That way we can hear the engine and give you better feedback.

I'm glad you and the bike are fine!

 

[nissepelle]

My initial thought was that it must have been very slippery and/or the tires were cold. You did not lean very much and you did not touch the front brake (your revs were also low so engine braking and thus weight shift to the front wheel was also minimal). I can not blame you as a rider it was simply bad luck by hitting a spot which happened to be slippery.

What front tire do you have mounted on the bike? Sportier tires such as Michelin Pilot Power etc. have very poor wet grip which also could have been a contributing factor.

I drove on a circuit in rain the other day with michelin pilot power. I drove faster than in the video posted above and did not have any problems at all with grip.

 

[RymdBörje]

Lose the music , and pretty please, all of it as it gets in the way of getting almost anything useful out of the video. We need to hear the engine to get a feel for your throttle control.
Even with music I'm with the erratic throttle control camp.
You're not obviously on the brakes when you start your ground and tarmac survey.
Repost the video sans the unnerving music.

 

[RandomDude]

I drove on a circuit in rain the other day with michelin pilot power. I drove faster than in the video posted above and did not have any problems at all with grip.

Yes, the speed in the video was suspiciously low, hence I am guessing for a patch of slippery oil/fuel which had not yet been washed away by the rain.

Properly warmed Pilot Power tires are adequate in rain, but not even close to Pilot Road or other "rain-friendly" tires which also work "ok" when cold. At least that is my own experience from having tried both.

 

[enrosabil]

Total loss of throttle control/not opening the throttle at all making the bike unstable and then it leans too much and since you knew it was slippery and you got a bit scared your reaction was to not open the throttle to stabilize it so it just kept leaning more and more until it was on its side?

 

[dr.tooth2008]

Thanks all for your comments
Now the crashing part without music..
--------

I did not panic since every thing went so quickly! there was almost no time for any reaction

regarding the brake, I am sure I applied the brake in good time, enough before coming to the corner (you can see my right hand come to the the ever and goes away) so all wight on front tire just normalized

Throtle you can judge better now with the new clip. However, I think it was steady and not lost or sudden increased..

+++++++++++++

'My tires are Dunlop sportmax roadmaster II, came original from factory and on time of crash only 4000 km


Tires may were cold (the crash occurred in the 1st round that day) I arrived there at 8:30 and then the first ride was at 10:00 am

The crash was after 10 minute of driving on that low speed, so it is obviously cold.

And of course it is slippery and I am a beginner = perfect combination for low side crash.

 

[#68]

Do you feel comfortable on your bike in wet conditions? Your arms look rather stiff and not so relaxed? Typical rain reaction... The less you interfere with your bike the better.

It looks like you´re pulling the left handle instead of pushing - did the instructors talk about "motstyrning" (counter steering?)? It will improve your feeling of control over the bike going into the turn. Combine with throttle control and you will be able to ride the corners with greater confidence even in the wet.

 

[KHRacing]

Its a kartingtrack - not the same kind of tarmac as on roads at all, you cannot compare them !
In rainy weather this form of tarmac is really super slippery

This specific corner is always very slippery since the karts go through there at close to full speed & lay tons of rubber there (I live a few miles away from there so i know the track)

Also.. no-one shut your ignition off after the crash.

 

[FSN]

Its a kartingtrack - not the same kind of tarmac as on roads at all, you cannot compare them !
In rainy weather this form of tarmac is really super slippery

This specific corner is always very slippery since the karts go through there at close to full speed & lay tons of rubber there (I live a few miles away from there so i know the track)

Also.. no-one shut your ignition off after the crash.

True, and TS is later on turn in compared to the instructor, ending up in a lot of rubber.

 

[Ese]

Nothing wrong with riding slowly and carefully! And I trust your tyres were fresh and good.
-repeating what many said: it is wet and it looks very slippery. It is obviously also chilly (less than 10 degrees?) and most importantly: as you ride very slowly (have ridden until the issue on this low-speed track?), your tires (front tyre) are simply "cold as at the pit". **I quite strongly think**

A throttle control attempt with low gear and "with only the smallest extra" could equally well have caused your rear wheel to slip, followed by a lowsider.

On such a snail-speed track under cold rainy conditions and without heaters, I think only lowering the pressures of tires might be helpful: To get the tyre temperatures to raise to the minimum during the warm-up lap(s).

---
Edit: When driving faster and cornering using some acceleration it is OK and even required to move weight on the front wheel - all with your head and body. (-this as a reflection to some earlier comments.)

The grip in the "larger" backwheel isn't better than in the "narrow" front tyre as the contact patch area only very, very little affects the grip (i.e. into the friction co-efficiency). And the area doesn't even impact linearly or in the way many may think. For such low speed circumstances, you can lower the pressure in tyres: the contact patch areas gets larger but that doesn't worsen the grip per se. The tyre bodies will get some more flexible, but you will not need such a stiffiness or stability for low speeds; hardly no risks for wobbles or such. Importantly you may be able to reach the normal or at least the required minimum working temperature for the rubber. Being the pre-requisite that you can start "driving" and cornering, by first feeling some grip under you..

I hope the damages on your bike were just cosmetic (this is what the crashpads are for!), and I hope this all just encourages and determines you to continue, on all kinds of tracks and circumstances.

 

[Maverick_ou812]

Slippery when wet. Pure bad luck I would say. Speed is so low that you should make the corner no matter what.

 

[Ulvhamne]

If you keep the revs constant when tilting the bike, you actually slow down a wee bit due to the curved profile of motorcycle tires, which loads the front tire a bit.
Granted, the track looks slippery (with the nice, slick asphalt) and the tires were probably cold, so a lower speed would probably have helped a bit. You were on the limit of grip and then just added a tiny bit of extra stress.

As for the rear vs front grip issues, I prefer having the rear step out a bit way more than having the front slip away, since I can still keep the bike upright with a sliding rear as long as it's not going really wide and giving me a highsider.

 

[Galne Dansken]

Riding in the rain, without rainracetires can be a challenge. Riding when it´s less then 8-10 celsius is a challenge, since grip can be dramatically reduced. Riding at a wet cold "rubbertized" tarmac is all of your worst enemies put together.

* Reduce speed, sometimes more then what you think you should.
* Ride it soft and gently, be extra soft whenever turning
* Move turn points slightly back, make your lines wider
* Avoid leaning of the bike as much as possible, hang off instead
* And ride it soft..

In these difficult situations, every year particularly in the spring time - do we see many crashes like this one.
We see them beginning again on the tracks from mid september, when temperature goes down again.

Enclosed some friction figures - which I think many of you will find interesting - feel free to make conclusions for your own riding.... Have fun - ride it fast soft and safe..

 

[Harrybob]

Oansvarigt av smc att köra kurser när det är så fruktansvärt halt, imo. Alltså killen begär ju inget grepp ö.h.t ändå losar det, om det där var på landsväg skulle varenda jävla hoj ligga i diket. Seriously wtf?

 

[Rash]

It moust have ben something realy slippery on the track to be able to crash in that low speed. Looks realy strange...
Don't understand what the point with that "exercise" is? To go around in 20-40km/h on a go-cart track in the wet? A little bit of oil/glykol and it's all you need to crash in the wet.